Picture of the Day: Muslims helped make this country great?

When I recently read a news article with quotes from President Obama where he gave credit to American Muslim’s for helping build this country. Here is the quote:

“Eid also reminds us of the many achievements and contributions of Muslim Americans to building the very fabric of our nation and strengthening the core of our democracy”

It appears that rappers and Liberal talk show hosts are not the only ones doing drugs in the White House.





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  1. Oh, I don’t know? I’m sure Muslims have contributed a lot to their own culture, and perhaps to the world they have contributed things like architecture and art. But to a nation that of late was based on the melting pot, I just don’t see it. Have individual Muslim Americans added benefit to our country… sure. But was the fact of their being Muslim the defining means of the contribution… I think no.

    I could be wrong, so someone please explain where the contributions lie; mathematics, chemistry, physics, electronics, law, liberty, women’s rights and so on, and how it contributed to OUR democracy…. or for that matter, any democracy.

  2. Other than the introducing a portion of Europe’s unskilled labor after the kill-off of Europe’s male population during the first and second world wars and producing doner kabobs, Muslims have made no positive contribution whatsoever, although a substantially negative one in both Europe and America. They have certainly made no contribution to the visual arts since depictions of the human and other living forms are strictly prohibited by the Quran. One should never expect to see a Muslim Sistine Chapel and, the Byzantine Christian equivalent of Michelangelo’s work appearing in the Chora church in Istanbul as well as thousands of other icon murals throughout Greece, Cyprus and the Balkans, were obliterated by Muslims. The same applies to music. Hope against hope to find a Muslim Beethoven, Mozart or even a Townes Van Zandt or Bob Dylan. The Muslim contribution to philosophy consisted of a cheap imitation of Plato and Aristotle by Avicenna (Ibn Sina – a Jew incidentally) known naturally enough as Neo-Platonism and neo-Aristotleanism but the Greeks “invented” Plato and Aristotle and the Muslims have never produced any philosopher capable of holding the door open for these two geniuses. Beside that, Muslim philosophy has been hopelessly buried under its obscurantist and backward theology which stifles true philosophical inquiry. There is not and never will be a Muslim equivalent to Kant, Hegel, Rousseau, Heidegger, Sartre, or any other great thinker in the Western tradition. In the sciences – biology, chemistry, medicine, engineering, physics, etc. the Muslim contribution is a big fat zero. Actually, some believe Muslims invented the zero in mathematic along with algebra, but now we know why. It was to find a numeric equivalent to measure their lack of human achievement. Muslim “culture” is like the invasive kudzu vine in Georgia or the ebola virus – a purely destructive species of ideological pathology that destroys cultures, especially those which are weak and nearing a state of exhaustion.

  3. @TJ
    An excellent example of someone that forget, neglect, overlook, rejects just about everything Islam actually stands for. And TJ must be a Liberal Progressive because they did the Lib-Pro go to card, shame and name call (didnt know Muslim was a race either).
    To confuse the facts or (worse) dismiss or reject the facts is very saddening and dangerous. Just like Mormons are allowed to “Lie for the Lord”, Muslim are as well. They have an edict to convert all to Islam, by peace or the sword.

  4. I sure as would like to know what they have done to BETTER this country as far as I know they aint done SHIT to better this country

  5. Living in Utah has taught me plenty about Mormonism, especially after significant time and energy researching the religion to convert. always remember milk before meat. Your friends may not know or even admit the practices, they are real. Investigate for yourself. Not bashing them at all, just a doctrinal difference of agreement.

  6. @TJ: “Islamophobia?” Who concocted this new social so-called “pathology?” If you were a Christian today living in the Levant or in Egypt, Iraq or Pakistan where your ancestors and community had lived for nearly 1,800 years – that is, 600 years before Islam was ever conceived, you, your families and your churches would be facing extinction, in the exact same manner as the Christian community throughout the Byzantine empire faced extinction by the Seljuk and Ottoman Muslim Turks. Muslims wiped out the most vibrant Christian community in the world which is why the Christian community in Turkey today is less than 1% of the population. Egypt and the Maghreb were the seat of Christian philosophy and scholarship for centuries – (you may have heard of St. Augustine from Hippo which is today’s Islamic State of Libya) and the Coptic Christians in Egypt established in the 1st century. These communities are murdered and harassed perpetually across North Africa. Add to this cultural genocide committed by Muslims against every non-Muslim community. In Istanbul (Constantinople) where the largest piece of Christian architecture in the world (the Hagia Sofia) until the construction of the Cathedral in Sevilla and St. Peter’s in Rome, was converted into a mosque and its murals were destroyed. The very prototype of the Muslim mosque – that wart-shaped dome – came from the Muslim copying of the Hagia Sophia and their principle architect Sinan, a forcibly converted Armenian Christian architect. Yes, Christians and even atheists like me have sound, empirical reasons for fearing and loathing the cult of Islam – and I have only brought you through the 15th century. The horror story gets much worse as Muslims “make history.”

    You rattle like a hysteric liberal, embarrassingly ignorant of history and full of delusional self-righteousness.

  7. Actually, it was muslims who forced our fledgling nation into her first international conflicts. The Barbary Wars were fought because muslim nations, under the Ottoman Empire, were bent on piracy and kidnapping. Of course, they would allow safe passage for ships of those nations who would pay them a ransom in advance. Some things haven’t changed a bit.

  8. While we are bashing about other faiths and religions, what about the Amish? Anti-war and refuse to support serving in the military. You can affect sharia laws by accusing their women of committing heinous crimes like direct eye-contact and possibly winking at non-muslim males.

  9. I agree everyone. We know of one Muslim family who escaped from Iran when the
    Sha(sp?) was dethroned and the Militants took over (1980s?) . They left (on a pretend vacation)everything
    except the clothes on their backs and a few photos(and they were very comfortable
    financially there) They came here to continue to raise two daughters who would have freedom.They love America and have devoted their lives to speaking up against
    terrorists. I dont hear the current Muslims in America (and there are many
    in Michigan and Calif -they call it little Iran)speaking out against Sharia laws etc. I believe that all people applying for citizenship from anywhere in this world should be frozen out for 10 years at least. Arlene

  10. @Arlene…I live in Michigan and they call it Dearbornistan too. Michigan has the biggest population of Muslims in the country. That is where the majority of the Muslims live. Their entire police force is Muslim and they judge many of the cases that come before them using Sharia law. They have also been sued twice by people who have been tried with Sharia law and have lost both times. I am sure there are moderate Muslims over there (I live on the west side of the state), but I never hear them speak out against the hard core radicals. Why? Because they would be considered apostate and be marked for death. Being Christian in Dearborn is a risky business for non-Muslims, especially if you want to talk about Christianity. They have also gotten foot baths installed in some of the PUBLIC colleges and universities in Michigan as well. And have had prayer rooms buil as well. Like I say, being Christian in Dearborn and surrounding areas is a risky business.

  11. There is no such thing as religious freedom where they came from, and there is very little left here in the USA! As soon as thyey reach a controlling majority, there will be none here either.

  12. Just wondering, have any of those commenting here actually lived in the middle east? Yes, I have- a year in eastern Turkey (Diyabakir, capital of Kurdistan once upon a time) and another year in Saudi Arabia(Jeddah). Personally, I spoke openly with Turks, Kurds, and Saudis about religion, politics, favorite movies, kids getting in trouble, ad naseum and found the average person (granted, almost always male)was by no means any more rabid and radical than the guy I had breakfast beside in a local Diner last weekend. I lived In Germany, Iceland, Korea and visited other countries widely- it was same in everyone. They love their kids, worry about the bills, and want things to be better just like us. For the record, MOST of those I met admitted they wanted to come to America so they could leave all the dissention, blood feuds, sectarian violence, and crap going back 10 centuries before THE VIKINGS found Vinland. If you do a bit of research you’ll find the Shia and Sunni today treating each other about the way the Holy Roman Empire’s Catholics were treating the Protestants 1000 years ago… treatment the Protestants returned in spades. Oh yeah, and Islam is about the same age today Christianity was back then.
    Now hear we are, sounding more and more like they same kind of sectarians they said they wanted to leave behind. America- all or nothing… all hyphenated-American, all Liberal, conservative, pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-life, pro-this or anti-that.
    I don’t have all or many of the answers folks, but I do know this- the way we’re treating each-other and even more critically to our shame- the New Americans, is going to create more and more places like Dearborn. No, I AM NOT inferring we open the borders to whomever or lite a fire and join hands to “teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.” nor am I saying shut the door and boot’em all out. I am asking each of us the act like the men and women the founders of this nation- Christians, Jews, Muslims, pagans, white and red- later black and Asian who sweated blood to give us the right to “stop remaining silent an be thought fools” wanted us too. To be the thinking a reasoning electorate Jefferson intended…before it’s too late. Sorry about the rant and any spelling errors, oh- and before anyone decides I’m just a troll or ogre or garden gnome or something- curriculum vitae available upon request

  13. Well I think that Think you all just need to Get a CLUE ! I know some Muslim People ! they are just like you or I as We all are ( Something Else Americans )
    unless you are a 100% Native American you all are from somewhere else Mexico, Spain, germany, Isrial, turkey, greece ETC. Okay ! & We (our fore fathers) Came here to make our lives Better, So we didn’t have to be subjected to discrimination of race or Religion !

    But to those FEW DUMB A$$ that made comments like Islamophbia, & the MORON’s ERIC & TJ why don’t you go to a Libary and ask them for an old fashioned Book called American & World History circa 1940’s really old nasty looking & really thick BOOK ! you know BOOK’s the KIND with out a DZ. brightly colored Pictures with quotes like Wham & Zoom in them ! but maybe 20 to 30 pictures in the entire book in Black & White! Read it before coming here & opening your Mouths & showing us how Dumb you are with the Education that our tax Dollar$ have paid for !!! To every one else, Like John R., PR, Arlen, & the rest Keep up the good Fight ! And why He is still in Office without an Impeachment beginining broadcast across the NEWS ours or THERES is Beyound my 187 IQ !

    • Solar –

      I cannot speak for everyone but I believe most everyone that “criticizes” Muslims are referencing those radicals that spew hate and violence. The point of the picture and corresponding quote was to show the ridiculousness of our president and his beliefs.

      It is not necessary to call names and insult – just state your argument based on your beliefs and opinions (and hopefully facts).

      I had a Muslim that worked for me once and lived in a Muslim community. We had good conversations and he had a good heart – BUT, a very weak will and I could tell he was easily manipulated. No doubt the by far the vast majority of Muslims here in the states mean no ill-will towards their Christian neighbors.

      Radical Muslims need to be wiped off the face of the planet to spare the any innocent lives which they torture and kill.


  14. Anyone have any idea why ovomit doesn’t list all the contributions made by those of the Jewish or better yet Christian faith(he says he’s a Christian Right?)

  15. Ole Wolf, your comment comes from a fine place and in a near perfect world I would agree. But the world isn’t anywhere near perfect so polishing perfection isn’t possible. Much of this is the result of the Multicults, the rest, examples we witness, if not 1st hand, they still leave a chill. America’s melting pot has been poured into an ice tray, we’ve been divided for a purpose, and not an admirable one. We see and read how “some” if not “many” who come here, be they Muslims or others want to partake in our freedoms, but live under their own preferred laws. Laws that often counter our own. When we see demands for Sharia Law and read about honor killings in this country…. we wonder… When we see what’s happening in Europe because they opened their doors to a mass influx of Muslims), we worry. The news on Muslims drones on endlessly, whether deserved or not, much of it is bad. We are compelled to pick a side, justifiably we choose ours. Humanity has invented various ways to give itself a sense of understanding what it does not understand, Being reasonable has gotten us by for a long time, but it doesn’t seem to be satisfying anyone anymore, least of all those who demand more than we can ever give.

  16. I can give some Moslem contributions to America, though they are FAR from the positive statements of our President. 1) Christopher Columbus sailed West to find India, BECAUSE MOSLEM ARMIES AND ISLAMIC EXPANSION BLOCKED THE TRADE ROUTES TO INDIA. 2) SLAVERY! That’s right, North African Moslems conquered Sub-Sahara (black) territories and sold the people as slaves. 3) PIRACY – During the early years of our nation, Barbary (Islamic) pirates captured and ransomed our merchant ships in the Mediterranean Sea. The Marine Corps hymn recalls our military engagements to end these violent scoundrel’s rein “To the shores of Tripoli”! 4) WEAKENED ECONOMY POST 9/11. I hope we have not forgotten it was ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS THAT ATTACKED US. We’ve been at war ever since.

  17. Add to your list of Muslim horrors: Regarding the Ottoman Muslim pirates operating from bases along the Barbary Coast in the Mediterranean from roughly the 16th – 18th centuries, these “pirates” who considered their conquests legitimized by the Quranic doctrine of jihad, enslaved an estimated 1 1/2 million Europeans, most of whom died in slavery (not to mention black African slavery perpetuated along trade routes throughout Africa). As reported in Christopher Hitchins’ excellent book on the subject:

    When Jefferson became president he resented the exorbitant ransom that the U.S. (which had only a fledgling navy at the time) was required to pay to secure the return of seized ships. Therefore he and John Adams traveled to London in 1785 to meet with the Sultan’s ambassador, Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja,regarding the situation. The story goes: “When they enquired ‘concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury,’ the ambassador replied:

    “It is written in the Quran that all nations which have not acknowledged the prophet (Mohammed) are sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave and that every Muslim who was slain in this warfare was certain to go to paradise . . . ”

    This is the identical philosophy without “moderation” which is guiding Muslims today – all over the world.

  18. I think and hope most Muslims are moderate and the problems we are seeing today are caused by radicals who have something to gain such as power, authority, wealth, cause the things we see today as they incite one class or religion to go after others that are not in agreement with tier ideas. Hitler would be a good example and many others who have created many wars and much death in this world.

  19. Okay folks- you’re all right… I’ll crawl back under my bridge now and forget the “good” Moslems I knew and worked with and the “Good” Russians, Germans, Chinese, Hispanics, black, whites, canines and BEMs, I’ll forget the Christians who “colonized” the “New World” blessed by the church (Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, whatever) at every village burned, every local forced at sword-spear-gun point to convert; every squaw raped. I’ll forget that while local tribesmen and yes some Arabs sold people to Dutch and English Captains… AMERICANS bought them. I’ll forget family who didn’t get out of Eire in time and starved watching grain grow for their Lords and Masters horses and the ones who didn’t get out of their Fatherland but instead got a free train ride to a special place in Poland. I was raised on the Dineh Reservation- Navajo to most you- so I guess I can forget the trail tears (there were several hosted by the Great White Fathers) and the Official US Government policy toward the tribes in the 1800’s- “The only good Indian is a dead Indian.”
    I already forgot the Indian kids collected by armed BIA officers and forced to live behind barbed wire in a dorm from September thru May every year so they can get a “useful education.” Oh, and the “Interment Camps” for Americans of Japanese ancestry… guarded by armed men of German and Italian ancestry. I’ll do a memory dump of the Old Testament and it’s use of the “sword of the lord” to ensure the spread of the “word of the one god”… being a self-avowed Pagan for over 30 years I’ll block out how we had at least three Burning Times in Europe and two in the far east they’ll admit to… Now that everything we write on the Internet never goes away- I suppose I’ll wait for them to pick my stake for me. Hey, we ALREADY FORGOT we invaded Russia back in 1919 and the 1st & 2nd Marine Division controlled everything from the Pacific to the Urals- Gee maybe the Russians under Putin will forget that minor point too, Lord and Lady knows Lenin-Stalin-Kruschev-Gobachev didn’t let them.
    I love my country folks, served it for more than 24 years and have served my fellow Vets for 12 more… all I asked was for us citizens to learn ALL SIDES of these issues before we start making decisions. John Gault, all of you- ask yourselves what Ayn meant when she asked “What would John Galt do?” (Not in the book- in her talks afterwards)
    So I’m done- if you ignore everything else just remember you government, the one we elected by mission of action OR inaction, is watching every one of these web sites… key words get human eyes to check what the robot eyes found.
    Good bye and good luck. Back to my bridge.

  20. WOW!!! You’ve got to be freaking kidding me!! Once again our president shows his hidden agenda, and people want to defend these a religion that calls for the death of all Christians to be converted or killed! GET A FCKING CLUE! My god how fcking stupid can you be!!!! UNFUCKING BELIEVABLE!!

  21. If you come to America to better your life, quit trying to change it for your own betterment. If you don’t like the way we do things here go somewhere else, please. Rourke you are correct mostly, all radicles should be put down like the rabid animals they are. Love your site, thanks for all your help.

  22. Come now Ole’ Wolf: I sympathize with the immense burden you have placed on your shoulders but standing above it all as you do and seeing the relativity and fallacy of all human truths must leave you, at times, nauseated from the smell of your own purity.
    In any event, the issue raised by the Obama quote really isn’t about Christian v. Muslim or vice versa, although that is the world perspective that Muslims and other religious quacks, currently frame the social upheaval in the Middle East – and, the way Muslims are sculpting events on the ground by treating their military expansion and conquest as a mission mandated by their religious doctrine. And if we are to attempt to understand the history unfolding before us it is important to understand the Islamic movement that is causing such devastation in Syria, Kurdistan and Iraq without resorting to liberal Polyannaisms about “the good and moderate Muslims in the world” because the fact is, this invisible sect called “moderate Islam” wherever it is hiding its evanescent, non-existent self, has played no role whatsoever in the actions of the Muslims that we all know too well from history – past and current – which is merely another way of saying that there is no such thing as “moderate Islam” – it is a liberal fabrication and a political expediency created by the past two administrations hoping to placate a resistant population none to happy with the occupation of their country by a foreign Western power.
    And it is of utmost importance that we in the West (this is the point of our discussion here) understand not merely what political and social principles we believe in and what values we deem worthy but also what values we repudiate. Because while we may be content to sit down with the average Muslim for a coffee and talk about the kids or the sport match, we fundamentally denounce core values that he and his ummah, his religious community, embrace as true and valid.
    Let us look at a few: Western (Christian, if you like that phrase) nations reject child marriage which is practiced throughout the Muslim world. In every state of the U.S., marrying and/or having sex with an underage female is considered pedophilia and constitutes a criminal felony punishable by lengthy incarceration. Mohammed took a 6 year old girl named Aisha as a bride so the Muslims main “prophet” set the example for this disgusting practice. Beheading, lapidation (death by stoning) and whipping as a form of punishment under Sharia, Islamic law has been deemed cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Constitution. Adultery, blasphemy and prostitution which are not even crimes (or if so, they are low level misdemeanors in the US) are punishable by death in Islamic countries. Criticism, parody or ridicule of religious quackery and superstition, especially Mohammed, as well as leaving the faith of Islam, are punishable by death under Islam. In the West, such conduct is zealously protected as free speech and expression by the 1st Amendment. The American and French revolutions separated Church and State preventing the former from insinuating itself into the processes of government. Under Islamic law and in Islamic countries, Muslim clerics must be consulted regarding criminal and in legislative matters. Islam is the most blatantly misogynist religious ideology in existence. It hates women like dogs hate cats. Women must walk behind a man, must be hidden under a veil when in public and chaperoned by a male overseer. In most Islamic countries women are not allowed to attend school which is why female illiteracy in Muslim countries is the highest among all nations.
    The list could go on into the night but as I conclude it brings me to this point. The survival of the West – Europe and America and the Western hemisphere, is in jeopardy. It is a dangerous period for those who admire and respect the achievements of European civilization – science, medicine, philosophy, art, engineering, architecture, etc., etc. The Muslim world, in its thousands of years of inhabiting the planet has produced absolutely nothing that even approaches the great accomplishments of our civilization. And therefore if Muslims were ever to succeed in defeating the West it would mean that a superior civilization and culture had succumbed to a vastly inferior and barbaric one. The West had better get over the identity crisis which has been infused into it by liberalism and the political left. It must repudiate the globalist agenda of turning humanity into a mindless mass of happy, dull-witted, multicultural, politically correct consumers whose sole purpose is to generate insatiable corporate profits within a comfortably numb police state. And the greatest threat to the West – “our” civilization comes from Islam.

  23. After listening to the audiobook of AMERICA by Dinesh D’Souza while traveling, I believe pretty much nothing from O. The whole Ayers/Alinski stuff needs to be brought out to more Americans in order to protect the future of this country.

    And more on topic, if there are moderate Muslims, they need to get out there to counter and stop the radicals or they will be along for the ride of negativity by their silent approval.

  24. Okay Skiltz -ya got me back out from under the bridge. Look, I stood the line for more than 20 years and would do it again. I’m NOT disagreeing with the premise that we gotta watch these evil bastards… and stop them before it gets to be too much to handle. I AM saying we HAVE to keep the old proverb firmly in mind, “Speak well of your enemies, you created them.” Nuke’em ’till they glow AIN’T THE ANSWER.
    The current insanity in the Middle East stems both from the inherent hate between sects of Islam AND the morons in London and Paris when the divided up the region after taking it away from the Ottomans. Sunnis running made up countries populated by Shia and Shia running countries populated by Sunnis. They did the same crap in Africa… ever heard of the Hutus and Tutsis? Maybe the Serb-Croat-Moslem fun and games after Marshal Tito kicked the bucket? The west has drawn arbitrary lines on maps solely for our own benefit and now we’re reaping the results. The bible says it well, “The love of money is the root of all evil.”
    Personally I think we have blinders on when it comes to certain things. Consider the border. If we can’t stop Coyotes from smuggling thousands of people across the wide open spaces of the American South West and Narco-Terrorists from getting TONS of crap across… does anyone really think people willing to strap on a bomb-vest WOULDN’T strap a few pounds of stolen Russian-Pakistani-Indian-South African Plutonium if they knew it would kill thousand or millions of Yankee Infidels shortly after it killed them? Or have you considered why the borders have signs printed in Spanish and CHINESE? You know, Chinese- from China, still The People’s Republic of China. Where EVERY MALE has to serve in the military for 2 to 3 years… oh, and only SOME females are exempted by the way. If only a small percentage of immigrant Chinese, legal and illegal, remained loyal to Peking if and when we get into something serious in the Far East…and, gee many of them are deep in the IT infrastructure one way or the other… slip in the right command and…
    I am not a conspiracy nut, I AM a student of history and really wish we would try to learn from it…but, hell- we keep electing the same ole members of the Military-Industrial Complex Ike warned us about…Nope not Amuri-CA… we vote’em in then go back to worrying why or favorite team lost last night- and oh man did you see American Idol last night?! Wow the Kardashians… I want THAT life…
    You want to try something different – watch Al Jazeera America News… if you remember they have a specific agenda you can still see stories American Media flat out ignores. Funny how that happens isn’t it? BBC America USED to be that way… not no more… WE JUST DO NOT LEARN!

    • Ole’Wolf –

      I agree with some of what you say – but it begs the question: What is the answer? What must be done? What steps must be taken now and into the future?


  25. Rourke- I honestly thought 911 would do it… and we went the wrong direction as far as I’m concerned. Short of another societal and cultural significant emotional event I just don’t know.
    Long term if we, as a people, could separate politics and education at least as well as we separated church and state we’d have a good start. Think of it from my side. I was taught in “Civics” class it was a citizen’s DUTY to report crimes. Nowadays, when the government says “See Something- Say Something” the reaction is more Soviet era than American ethic. I know, I know- our police today are Rule Enforcers not Peackeepers (a main reason I walked away from Law Enforcement myself). That kind of policing doesn’t lend itself to feeling safe.
    Now, I’m constantly saddened by the CRAP they teach kids in school… way TOO much ethics in the hands of people created by the waaayy Liberal Higher Education mill. Parents are too busy trying to out do their co-workers, cheat on their taxes, and keep up on their favorite entertainment than to show their kids how to be responsible citizens and adults. So, they let someone else do it…
    If we could neutralize education (just the facts Ma’am-) we could return to raising new responsible adult citizens. You know, the kind that made us the greatest nation on the planet…or maybe help us get back to that place…(can’t wait to hear the comebacks on that comment!)
    Oh and kill the cell phones…make them go away and people actually have to speak to each other again… Not hard to ignore others with the ability to make wholly un-necessary calls every time someone farts, play angry freaking birds while sitting on the crapper, and photograph the bird that too a crap on the windowsill to share with the whole world.
    Since neither will ever happen… all I can do is ask my fellow travelers to gather all the facts they can before coming to a conclusion. Remembering all the while shit happens and things change, so should you- without losing your core beliefs and ethics.
    Gumby’s NOT a citizen.

    • Wolf –

      Honestly – I can’t find anything you said that I disagree with you – including the fact it won’t happen.


  26. Stand.
    DO what you can with honor, forethought, and a care for your fellow man and woman.
    Teach the young to by honorable, ethical, and thoughtful.
    Boy ain’t I a dreamer…
    In the end that’s why I get called a troll… if I see no use in saying anything or have nothing useful to add – I read and move on. Occasionally, as in this case I get annoyed and here we are.
    Sir Rourke- I’m a miss-placed Cowboy from Nuevo Mexico stuck in Vermont. Since I DO study history and know what COULD come tomorrow- I study, plan, chop wood, carry water, keep up the garden, work with horses, and I do what I can when I can… and yes, tho- I’m a pagan myself, I pray every day.
    All I can do personally I do… and hope it’s enough.

  27. @ Ole Wolf: Your analysis as to how we got into the current quagmire in the Middle East is, for the most part, sound – although you jump off of your historical analysis when you say things like “we” or the French or the British caused these problems by “taking control away from the Ottomans” and drawing “arbitrary territorial lines between them.” What do you think the Ottomans did? There was no Syria, Turkey, Iraq etc. under the Byzantines. The problems in the Balkans, in particular, to this very day are a direct result of Ottomanism. There was no such thing as a Muslim in the Balkans until the Ottomans entered in the 15th century and began slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Christian Serbs and others and planting Islam on Balkan soil. Kosovo, aka the field of the Blackbirds, because of the crows that descended on Serbian corpses after the battle there against the Turks is the epicenter of Serbian culture. If it hadn’t been for Polish General Jan Sobieski routing the Turks at Vienna, Europeans would be muslim today. Therefore a fight must be waged by the West against Islam -and, it must be won. We are in a kulturkampf as we speak, like it or not. And I also agree that neither of the two corporate parties in the US is demonstrably capable of winning this war. The last two admins have proven that they are amateur historians, amateur diplomats and so profoundly incompetent that they (believing possible conspiracy theories) almost appear to be deliberately undermining US interests or else not understanding what these interests really are in the ME. Real, qualitative change in this country will definitely require a new political party which does not guide our domestic and foreign interests solely by the manner in which it advances corporate interests.

  28. Religion of all kinds has been the excuse for too many wars. Having so said, the way I see it, Islam is a religion of hate and control.

    God sets up kings and brings down kingdoms but in our republican form of government, we have only ourselves to blame for bad government and bad presidents.


  29. I have a gut feeling that the ISIS leader who said “We will see you in NY”
    may have a plan to send that missing plane to NY loaded with bombs. Hoping it wont work but I hope the officials are planning for this one. Arlene

  30. Nor do I disagree with your points Skiltz, I simply limited my examples to a few that directly resulted in some of the asinine situations our government has gotten us into. In truth, in their beginnings the Ottoman Empire’s brutality and Machiavellian (sic) politics made the borders irrelevant. I don’t say it was good or the right way to do things, but Lord and Lady it did work.
    Therein lies my point, the Ottomans weren’t the first ones to come up with the brutal but efficient method of rule… they learned it from the Byzantines who themselves learned it as a child of Rome. Beyond Rome, who knows. The point? They learned from history… and their empires lasted as long as their backbone did. Here we are 240 years in as a nation and the empires lasted around 1000. Culture war… oh yeah. … and if we don’t do two fundamental things…if we don’t learn from the past AND develop some serious political and societal backbone we will not survive let alone win this war.
    Kipling said it well; “Nations passed away and left no traces… and history gives the naked cause of it! One single simple reason in all cases… they fell because they were not fit.” I don’t think he was talking about their waistlines.
    My core point to all this is simply that to keep out cultural baseline, the moral high ground we were famous for, we have to hold ourselves ABOVE the level of our opponents. We have to stay up where they can both see us and they have to earn their way to our level. We use their ways, their methods and they drag us down to their level… with all that comes from that fall, slow or fast.
    To you Sir Rourke- another idea occurred to me out shoveling in the barn (really!), beyond growing responsible adults and citizens… Changing our foreign policy would go a long way toward getting us out of the “World Policeman” role and back to the bastion of freedom, science, and faith we were in our halcyon days. From other nation’s viewpoints we change the way we do business with foreign nations every 4 to 8 years and it really does us no good in most parts of the world. As an Egyptian Captain told me once, “we just can’t trust you Americans- you never keep your word.” Can’t say as I blame him. Now the question is “how?” Okay, how about using our vast technology to let the citizenry decide by referendum? Whups, can’t be bothered the new Sex and the City movie is out- can’t be mess with that referendum crap… so it’s back to another cultural and societal significant emotional event… the stuff my nightmares are made of. I suspect we’ll get what we deserve.

  31. Ole Wolf: The point on our respective points is becoming more refined with each foray, and with your last and most current historical analysis, excluding some of your points about the Ottoman empire), I am in agreement. But while it is convenient to dismiss the specifics of history in favor of the dismissive bromide, “we’ve seen it all before” ala Kipling, there is something to be said about the fact that the Western and Eastern Roman empires lasted over one thousand years, EACH. Ergo, the Roman/Byzantine empires did something more than just “do good in the world” – they perfected and administered statecraft with incredible precision and maintained a formidable army to brutally deter external threats.
    Democracies are not the only form of government capable of efficient and popular support. The Greeks invented the term “tyranny” (though not the concept) under Pisastratos who supported with his decrees, the poor against the aristocracy in Athens – a sort of Tito (not Stalin) style socialist redistribution of wealth. The Roman Republic morphed into the Roman empire but it became a victim of its own over-extension and brutality toward its colonies. Christian philosophy was merely one social movement that struck a chord among the disenfranchised and brutalized poor of the empire living around the Aegean and the Christian practice of martyrdom atoned the movement with profound credibility – possibly more than the pacifist theology of the religion – dying for their beliefs rather than, like Muslims, killing for them.
    What we know about social empires is somewhat identical to our knowledge of business and corporate empires – they must grow, expand and adsorb competition or they begin to wither, atrophy and collapse. And that is what happened to the Roman empire (one excellent scholar on the subject is Cambridge Univ scholar Peter Heather), for economic reasons it could no longer effectively sustain its garrisons along the limes (Danube and Rhine rivers) and in the middle of a harsh winter in the middle 4th century the Visigoths, a large German tribe, were forced over the Danube into Roman territory by invading Huns. In response to their ill treatment by the Romans, the Visigoths rampaged down through the Balkans, defeating the Roman army and the emperor Valens at the Battle of Adrianople and surrounded Constantinople where they stopped. The victories of the Germanic tribes did not so much show their development as a better civilization as it demonstrated the exhaustion of the Roman one – but there was some convergence. This empiric exhaustion was the very reason Diocletian, in the 3rd cent, created the Tetrarchy and split the Roman empire in two, with 2 caesars and 2 emperors. By his reign, the empire was already running on empty.
    And that is partially the case with the American empire. America gained substantial wealth by virtue of its measured and late entry into the first and second world wars. You could call WWII a victory but that is because no part of it was fought on American soil, so they did not have to rebuild their infrastructure after total devastation, as did Europe. America is a young empire and it has grown, certainly in the last 2 decades into a very fat one. Excluding WWII (which was not an American campaign but an allied campaign) when is the last time America won a ground war against an opponent? We lost in Vietnam and we certainly lost in Iraq. This is a very bad sign. The world’s largest military consuming the largest portion of our national the budget and the US cannot soundly defeat a guerrilla insurgency. Not only can the US government not win the enemy’s hearts and minds they cannot even destroy them. America is, like Diocletian’s regime, at a crossroads regarding its empiric survival. The sounds are everywhere but the politicians are whistling a sweet tune hoping the people won’t hear the crashing and breaking in the kitchen. We really need a brutal resurgence in politics which could come from the extreme left or right, but extreme situations require extreme remedies.

  32. Skiltz,

    The reason the US military cannot win a simple battle against insurgents is that we lack the political will to do so.

    Instead of worrying about how to achieve our objective with minimum US causalities, we worry instead about ‘collateral damage’ and too many of our boys come in boxes instead of marching home like Johnny.

    I spoke of Sherman’s letter to the Mayor of Atlanta in a past post (http://www.sewanee.edu/faculty/Willis/Civil_War/documents/ShermanMayor.html).

    Sherman knew not only how to wage unconditional war and set forth his principles in that letter; but better yet, he understood why such a war must be waged. So did Patton and Curtis LeMay. Our fathers won a world war in less time then we’ve been at the current war. The Greatest Generation saw what needed to be done and got to it.

    There are no innocent civilians. Civilians provide the material and manpower needed to prosecute a war. Sherman realized that, so did the leaders of that greatest generation. The minute we take a war directly to the civilians is the minute that war is on the way to prompt resolution. After all, I seem to recall that even North Viet Nam feared the B-52 of LeMay’s provenance.

    This generation however believes in mollycoddling the oppressor by limiting collateral damage. And wars go on and on and on.


  33. Sorry Skiltz- off line sick horse and a day with the Vet
    Okay- again you write very little I disagree with and to a minor degree your explanations prove my point… how many men and women on the Hill or worse in the White House could even have this conversation. Hell, I sat down and re-watched a History Channel show on how the current middle east evolved just for the heck of it. Our leaders DO NOT and our national response to so much proves it.
    While I fully believe pure, naked violence has solved more problems than any other “answer” in our history- ask the Carrier Pigeon, Dodo, a whole lot of Nazis and Carthaginians. Applying violence incorrectly has RESULTED in whole new waves of future problems. Consider Panhandle Rancher’s example. I’d ask him to illustrate any one time “taking the war directly to the civilians” actually ended a war. There are a few I can recall from history, BUT they were reasoned and pre-planned applications of extreme levels of violence on multiple fronts. Germans tried to break their enemy’s will in two world wars and it didn’t work. The US and Brits tried it in reverse and it didn’t work- a real Duh! there. Sorry Panhandle, the North Vietnamese didn’t get driven to the bargaining table chased by B52s. Hezbollah Rockets won’t do it any more than Israeli tank and howitzer shells.
    One place I will call what you say BS is your comment that American ground forces “lost” in Vietnam and Iraq. Sorry Skiltz- we “won” both wars ON THE GROUND and lost them IN THE WILL. Read Giap’s own book – he admits by the end of Tet in 1968 we had eliminated 75-80% of Viet Cong cadre in the south. After ’68 the bulk of operations were carried out by NVA units not VC. By the end, the NVA had more tanks and trucks invading the south than Patton had in the 3rd army. Giap also thanks the US for getting rid of a problem he worried about facing once they won…what to do with the armed and motivated Viet Cong once Hanoi started giving orders. If you look, you’ll find an interesting statistic about how many southern Vietnamese went into “Re-Education Camps” who were known party members, they supposedly had special camps separate from those for RVN survivors.
    As far as Iraq goes- which battle did the US lose? I must’ve missed it.
    Now, and here’s where Panhandle is dead on the money, after Tet it LOOKED like we lost to TV Reporters who cried and screamed on nightly news, ran daily tallies of KIA-WIA-MIAs and the citizens soaps and NFL-AFL contests were interrupted and here we are.
    Iraq- same wins same loses. We won on the ground but started seeing KIA-WIA-MIA numbers on the nightly news and how many times did we hear that we were getting “mired in another Vietnam!” So what do we do? Castigate the guy who let us kick in the door AGAIN and elect a guy who promised to get us out. Personally, I was there the first time in ’90-’91 and we SCREWED a WHOLE LOT of Kurds and worse- Iraqi’s from the southern end of the country. We promised them all sorts of support and help and walked out on them… Yay! We won…and Sadam murdered them in droves and WE SAT THERE AND WATCHED HIM DO IT. He started doing it in the north too but we had SF on the ground with the Kurds and kind’a convinced him to stop. Any wonder locals don’t much like us… also tells you why the Brits occupied the Basra area not us.
    Oh, by the way? -ever hear of the Montenyards? (multiple spellings if you look)- the Mountain People in Indochina. Actually several tribes not just ‘yards – all of which and been beaten down by low land Vietnamese so when we asked they stood with us against the VC and when we walked out (ran to the choppers) they were massacred. Some individuals Americans helped some get out and we have near-whole villages of Viet Hill People along with more than a few Laos up in the northern Rockies.
    Only when we have the national intestinal fortitude to completely destroy the enemy’s political and societal infrastructure have we succeeded in turning enemies into friends as in Germany and Japan. Even then, people being people- I strongly believe we’ll eventually end up fighting the Germans and Japanese at some point- we’re just too a like in a world of limited resources. Even now young Japanese are demanding to know why they don’t have forces to fend off the Chinese and young Germans are starting to re-think just how bad Hitler really was. Amazing what I hear on Al Jazerra and even BBC TV that no one on ABC-NBC-CNS-Fox-CNN seems to mention.
    So, in the end all three of us are really saying the same thing- if America doesn’t wake up- we’re screwed.
    Hey- there were two Moslem rich guys who helped bankroll the initial American government. As I recall it was a case of “the enemy of my enemy- is my friend” after problems with British traders but hey, Moslems helped!

  34. It appears we have gone astray of the original point of this article which is Obama’s embrace of Muslims in this country as equal contributors to the “building of America” and “contributing to the democratic process.” My original point was that this declaration from Obama while constituting blatant political pandering to Muslims is a fabrication – worse, its a venal and dangerous lie because as part of the neo-liberal “multicultural cult” which has been fashionable in the West for the past several decades, there is not an ounce of evidence to support it and much to contradict it.
    And this means that if the US is to alter its course as a multi-cultural swampland, regain or reforge its identity and redirect its foreign relations with the world, a new leader and prayerfully a new political party will have to reset both the clock and the compass of this nation – and that means not just a political but a cultural reawakening. Events in France today provide an optimistic demonstration of the possibility of transformation – a country which has endured perpetual Islamic immigration which until very recently threatened to change the culture and politics of France is seeing a definitive reversal. The Front National, a party which all pundits dismissed, although still comparatively small, is now the most popular in France and that is because its political agenda is (and always has been) anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, anti-EU and forthrightly nationalistic. After decades of post war patsy pseudo-socialism from the SP, the French are re-embracing their profound culture and understanding the genuine threat that Islam and its delusional adherents poses to it. The French youth have abandoned the 68’ers of the New Left (our Berkleyism) and are embracing a new found nationalist resurgence directed very strongly at the Islamist agenda – and that is what Europe and the US require to reverse decades of unchecked third world, culturally asymmetric immigration – because the institutions that made this country profound – are European institutions borne of the Enlightenment, social organization based on reason, science, law, industry and a rejection of Medievalism – and in the case of Islam – Mesopotamianism.
    As to our military capabilities – it cannot be that our soldiers or command lack will power, experience or expertise. The problem in Iraq is that Bush attempted “regime change” against a leader which it had installed and supported for years and who, managed his country brutally but effectively – keeping Sunni-Shia antagonism at an evanescent minimum. Bush didn’t just fight (or instigate) a war, he became the architect of an entirely new imposed form of government, with new personnel, new laws, etc. – and the Bush neo-cons were thoroughly unqualified for the mission, reflected by the unspeakable catastrophe which is now Iraq, Kurdistan and Syria. It will be viewed by future historians, as it is by present ones, as the worst foreign diplomacy disaster in US history.
    Vietnam was different. The NVA and their famous General Giap were profoundly competent strategists and soldiers and effectively undermined U.S. ground operations, which is why the US resorted to “bombing them back to the stone age.” The Tet offensive caught the U.S. forces completely by surprise much as Islamic State (IS) did in Iraq with Maliki’s army and was a major success, ultimately leading to the withdrawal of the U.S. But during the entire war you never heard of Vietnamese or communists committing the kinds of atrocities that IS has committed throughout Syria and Iraq. Islam is a different ideology, regressive, atavistic, anti-humanistic based on the irrational, superstitious elements in the human character. Islam is the ideology one should use to operate an insane asylum, not a humane government – and the West must declare total war against it to the point of its extinction from the earth.

  35. Wow… again
    Skiltz yet again I take little issue with you analysis and your parallel between the Isis and VC/NVA is interesting and one I had not thought of. I do disagree on one point- the Viet Cong and their predecessors the Viet Minh were every bit as blood thirsty and violent as Isis… the main difference is time, distance- oh, and cell phone’s with cameras. As were the Pathet Lao… and we’ve heard volumes about the Khemere Rouge (sic) and the killing fields.
    Personally, I often wonder if humankind just cannot organize beyond family clan or tribal lines without the organizations collapsing under their own weight. new comers brought their strengths and weaknesses and over time assimilated. My fear is that now days as my favorite President warned, we’re schisming into a hyphenated society in which it’s more important to be “something” first THEN American… African-american, Hispanic-american, Arab-american, Liberal-american, Christian-american…and yes, the “A” is intentionally lowercase since that seems to be their point in the hyphen.
    I also have to ask you something… do you honestly think MOST or even MANY Moslems really want to destroy the world in the effort to make it a wholly Moslem world? The couple Imams I’ve spoken to certainly want to prostelyze and convince us all to convert… but I’ve heard from a lot more Christians along the same lines… The man on the street I spoke to and sometimes worked with wanted more to come the America for all their hopes and dreams not to convert the US into what they had back home.
    My point has been all along that we work toward assimilating Arabs, shia-sunni-sofi-whatever and keeping the Wahbis and those like them OUT.
    If you think about it tho- You mentioned General Sherman earlier… have you ever lived in the south? I swear there are families infusing the belief that they need to have a second go at the north after the Late Great War of Northern Aggression… We still have the KKK, American Nazi Party, and far too many more like them. The irony is people in Arab Terror groups don’t much like our home grown black Islamics…
    America’s reputation as a melting pot meant exactly that…

  36. I do believe I have found a point of substantial disagreement and that concerns the intentions of Muslims entering this country and Europe as “innocent” well wishers merely seeking refuge from the miseries of their home countries but without a desire to change the character of the West. That may have been true during the early decades of Turkish immigration to Germany or North African immigration to France, Belgium and Netherlands and Pakistani immigration to Great Britain when their numbers were manageable and their biggest concern was securing labour. European Muslim immigration has mushroomed geometrically and it has now found a cultural identity which is completely adversary to Western Christian and secular values and has moved the front line onto European soil. The second in command of IS is a Belgian jihadi who lived in Belgium for 25 years! 25 years in the heart of European culture and the word “integration” never entered this Muslim’s lexicon. Look at Amsterdam, Brussels, Berlin, Cologne, London, Stockholm, Manchester, etc. where massive numbers of large mosques have and are being constructed. These are nothing like the church communities we used to know where a community of believers would gather enough offerings or donations and build a community church for themselves. These are “Islamic centers” consisting of a mosque, a madrassa and a shopping area for converting kofars. Do local Muslims have the funds to build these mega-conversion centers? Of course not. The Saudi and Qatari governments finance and construct these mosques throughout Europe just as the Diyanet of the Turkish government does the same in Germany. As I said previously, this is kulturkampf – a deliberate, overt spreading of Islam into the West with cultural, and ultimately, actual conquest as an objective. That is why the most dangerous Muslims in the West are not the jihadis who declare their mission to convert (ala IS or Al Qaeda) but the mild-mannered, university student, academic Muslims who are here for the long struggle, embellishing their numbers, influence and creating an image in the minds of Americans that Islam is an ordinary cultural artifact like Chop Suey or Brazilian hair weaves. The West has been in an existential kulturkampf since 732 when Abdul Rahman, the Umayyad Caliph of Cordoba, Spain went on a jihad to pillage, rape and convert the French through to the stopping of the Ottoman Muslims at the gates of Vienna, Austria. it is the same struggle, different epoch.

  37. Nah, no disagreement here. I’m speaking of the individual Moslem while you are looking at it from a histo-societal or systemic viewpoint.
    Like any human, a Moslem man loves his children, loves his wife (usually only one despite popular belief), wants the kids to do better- go farther than they did. Just like a Russian, a Bantu, a Jew, a Catholic or an American. I went to Tech School for electronics in the Air Force many moons ago and two of my classmates were named Baghani and Kazemi, Imperial Irani Warrant Officers. They were cultural and spiritual morons, don’t get me wrong- nice guys but paid 5 times what I was and acted like 17 year old kids. Denver in the 70s, drinking, chasing women, and being Ugly Iranis in general. That was 1975. According to their families both died on the front lines fighting as penal infantry when Iraq and Iran spent 10 years killing each other…. as the Shah’s soldiers and friend of the Great Satan that’s all they were worth… no idea what happened to their families.
    As an aside, it’s funny- we tend to see them all as “Arabs” but if you call an Arab a Persian or a Persian and Arab, Katy bar the door! No love lost there… and ask an Egyptian how he feels about the Saudi royal family…
    Now, are there men sitting in walled homes along the Rub al Khalid and the shore of the Red Sea doing long-term planning to increase the span of control of the Prophet?… oh yeah. No conspiracy theory here. They admit it openly and have for years. I lived in Jeddah, boy do they talk down about us- we’re misguided People of the Book and they’re going to lead us to Allah one way or the other Inshallah…Again, our media just doesn’t cover it. No, no disagreement…I was once a upon a time a Middle Eastern Specialist and actually still do watch foreign news and you can hear them talk about it so there’s no way I could..
    For the record- my oldest son lives and works in Prague. Has a Czech wife and a little girl with dual citizenship. He e-mailed me once in shock at finding a statue in a little square in Prague with a plaque bearing our family name. Being in part of Irish descent our family had a habit of shooting at the Brits and so where run out. We’re founding members of the Wild Geese of Irish history. One of his Paternal Grandfathers was named “Protector of Prague” after leading the defense of the city against the Turks. No Skiltz- I don’t disagree with you one damn bit.

  38. Thank you Skilitz and Ole Wolf for you cogent commentaries. Both of you should consider writing more for Modern Survival.

    The B52 action to which I referred was Operation Linebacker II. Although this operation failed to meet all of its goals, it is generally credited for bringing North Viet Nam back to the negotiation table.


  39. I second Ole Wolfe’s thank you. I am thankful that there was a strident and qualitative exchange of ideas from people who still think and care about the state of our collective being. Best wishes.

    • I have really enjoyed all the commenting here. Thank you Ole’Wolf and Skiltz!! Looking forward to hearing more from both of you and like Panhandle Rancher said – you are welcome to write for MSO anytime.


  40. Thank you for your comment Panhandle Rancher- sincerely.
    While I hate supporting some authors there are times it’s worth the tradeoff. I if you can get a hold of it try and read Giap’s Bio. His comments about the various bombing campaigns has a whole new aspect… albeit one from a die hard point of view.
    On the side while I enjoy the back and forth on these topics especially with folks like Rourke, Skiltz and yourself- I really do miss these kind of conversations over coffee or a couple beers. Still, it’s been a stimulating conversation to say the least, thank you for your views. I’ve read more than a few of Skiltz in the past and your comment certainly applies to him!
    Thank YOU Rourke.

  41. Ole’Wolf and others-I also wish we could sit around with other preppers and have in person discussions.Here in rural NY people are very private also.
    Ole Wolf -what are Vermonts current gun laws like? How are taxes there ? We are fed up with hugh NYS taxes and the current gun laws. Thanks. Arlene

  42. Rourke- you ever a question about something going on in the VA give me a shout. I won’t presume to speak for the whole organization but I will speak for myself as a Vet, a retired Senior NCO, and a 12 year member of a much maligned and denigrated organization.
    I look forward to many more stimulating and insightful conversations and hope to verbally spar with Skiltz, the Rancher and yourself again. In truth, as I said I truly do miss having these kinds of discussions… around central VT they are rarer that those proverbial hen’s teeth and I do visit your site a couple times a day. Keep u[ the good and meaningful work!p

  43. Hi Ms. Arlene. As of right now the only state prohibition we have is NO SILENCERS. Seems the state Gov was highly concerned about poaching years ago and figured silencers = more poaching. Open or concealed carry state-wide and so far New Hampshire has not given me much heartache when I cross the river. I carry every day only precaution I take is to cover my EDC just to keep the folks from CT, Mass and yes, occasionally NY from pointing, commenting, and calling the cops. Just annoys me, other locals and the cops.
    There are a couple cities/towns that have local ordinances prohibiting open carry in city limits- notably Burlington, Montpelier/Barre and Rutland. Again, I just cover it and increase my caution. I stopped shopping in Burlington after their even more asinine anti-gun ordinances came out, actually told the mayor I’d rather spend my money in New Hampshire. It was funny when shortly after the laws changed the local gun ranges kicked the Burlington PD off their ranges in protest. They drive a ways to qualify now.
    Taxes are a different story. There are only around 500K residents and only around 150K actually pay taxes… which means taxes are fairly high. Not MASS or NY high but higher than New Hampshire or Maine, My property taxes have gone up around 100$ a year last 5 in a row. Right now on a 2 bedroom on one acre it’s $2800. That’s 3 times what we paid on a ranch house on 90 acres in the Bitterroot Valley in Montana.
    Ms. Arlene in all seriousness, if I could get out of my mortgage I’d be west of the Mississippi in a flash and preferably in or beyond the Rockies. Until then like the song says (modified) “I live back in the woods ya see- my lady, my dogs, the horses and me” and Vermont ain’t half bad… for the East.

  44. Ole Wolf-thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. My brother lived in the Bitterroot Valley for several years until the fires came.
    Here an old farmhouse and 90 acres has taxes at $12,000 per year.(this is in an ag district on land that is farmed)

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