Guest Post: Rifle Reality……

Rifle Reality

by Bret Gould

 

What is rifle reality?  Jeff Cooper knew what it was, our military snipers know what it is as well.
It is the concept of bring enough gun.   People, we have hard , hard times coming.  We will very likely be in the fight of our lives as individuals and Americans.  Few realize that proper weapon selection can be a life saver.  I prefer the .308 battle rifle.

 

Former Navy Seal Matt Bracken wrote a series of articles on possible scenarios in coming events.  He hit upon important points.  Most of the adversaries we are likely to face irregardless of the group they represent will carry a .223 caliber weapon. or a 7.62 x 39 mm caliber weapon.  These weapons are limited in range.  The .308 will vastly out reach them.

 

Now I hear the arguments of how the .223 is just great and reaches out there.  Then how come the military snipers don’t use it? The answer is killing power.  A Louisiana Swat team hit a section 8 project house to get out a barricaded subject  using .223 weapons.  They were unable to hit the  barricaded subject  due to the inability of the .223 bullet to penetrate the building’s steel door.  They now carry .308 FN Fal  rifles.  Several members of that SWAT team got shot but they learned from it.

how to bug in

 

Matt Bracken advised using a high capacity, scoped battle rile in .308 to reach out and hit multiple targets with reach and power and that is the reason for it all. Jeff Cooper stated that a rifle should project power , accurately at a distance with speed.  Anyone who has ever sparred or fought an opponent with a much longer reach understands this.  They can hit you before you can hit them.

 

This is the thesis of my argument. The .308 gives you the reach over the .223 and 7.62 x 39 crowd.  For those who can only get one gun, get a .308 battle rifle.  A good Fn Fal, G3 or clone or even the venerable M1A. will do the job greatly.  The goal is to reach out, punch cover, buck the wind and put the bad guys down hundreds of yards before he is even a threat to you.  This is life insurance.  Buy for your health, buy for your life, but buy it now.

 


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16 Comments

  1. i have to disagree. even in a WROL situation we can expect some type of law enforcement to exist…even if it all fades away then you’re turning into a murderer if you’re engaging targets at 300 meters. are you prepared to shoot people that are just walking down the street? what if they’re just minding their own business. even if we have no law i find that it would be hard to justify for myself a kill at that distance outside of declared war.

    also i wonder if the author isn’t pushing a platform as much as anything. why choose the FAL in this application? you can get an AR-15 type platform in 308, yet the author ignored that. one last thing. the author ignored the weight consideration that comes with carrying that large a round. the average ammo load is twice as high as it was during WW2 and with optics rounds are able to be placed much more securely.

    and about the LA Swat team that was using bullet as breaching tools WTF? they would do better to have gotten a grant from the Feds to buy an armored car with a breaching bar attached for those situations instead of using bullets. i need more info but they sound tactically deficient.

  2. Yes! MY 1st purchase was a kalashnikov.A good price , and I was also able to purchase a wooden case from mother russia (1470 rds) for 100 clams. A savage 110 tac in 308 came next, followed by a ptr 308(g3) and a m1a socom.As a after thought I acquired 2 ar carbines (S&W,and bushie) and optics.However given the choice, I prefer the 308 platform. Go ahead, take cover behind that cinderblock wall.

  3. The price of a .308 is high and that is a reason people go to the AK and M-15/16 and not the high quality ones. I bought a Russian WII rifle that will reach out and touch someone with the 7.62/54 and we all know the name of that famous rifle. The cost was awhole $70 and the ammo wasn’t to bad either. I have shoot it against the .308 and guess what, It Kicked Butt over the .308 It’s the shooter not the rifle.

  4. Although I own several weapons in .223/5.56mm, I concur that .308 is a much better round. My primary reason for buying an M4 and Mini-14, instead of an M1A, was that we plan on “Bugging In” and the topography around our home does not allow for shooting beyond 100 meters. Also, I was able to purchase both of the smaller caliber rifles for the cost of one 7.62mm. I have always felt that the M14 rifle was FAR superior to the M16/M4. I understand the reasons why the military converted back in the late 1960’s. We were fighting in Vietnam and the plastic buttstock and handguards weathered the moist jungle climates better than the wood on an M14. Also, the smaller bullet allowed an Infantryman to carry twice as many rounds. M16s are shorter and lighter as well, making it easier to handle. Especially when hacking your way through a jungle with dense vegetation and billions of vines. But, I would have NOT converted the entire military to 5.56mm. A Mechanized Infantryman in Germany (shooting across fields) or Korea (firing ridge to hilltop) would have been far more effective firing an M14 than an M16. Bottom line: I think the military should have kept the M14s for Mechanized Infantry and just issued the M16s to Airborne, Air Assault and Light Infantry units. When I was in Basic Training, while the Drill Sergeants were introducing us to the M16A1 Rifle, they mentioned that the high velocity, spinning bullet did not punch straight through an opponent’s body. It would often exit in the most unexpected location. They admitted that the bullet was not always fatal, but added that wounding an enemy took an additional soldier out of the fight, as the guy who was shot would have to be hauled off for medical attention. I think this was another failed philosophy, as the Soviet Army was made up of many ethnic groups (Eastern “Slavik” European, Latvian/Lithuanians and Ukranians not loyal to Russia, Muslims from the “Stan” provinces and Mongols from Siberia). These guys did not even speak the same language. Personally, I would not count on wounding one enemy soldier as decreasing the size of the assaulting element by two. I prefer the “One shot, one kill” theory. Many of our Special Operations forces complained that it took more than one bullet to drop militia members in Somalia in 1993. Anyway, everyone will have their own opinion. If you can afford a .308/7.62mm rilfe, handle/manage the recoil and take advantage of the increased accuracy at longer ranges, by all means get one! Of the different weapons that I fired in the Army (German G3, Belgian FN, Russian & Chicom AK-47s), I feel that the Springfield M14 (M1A civilian version) is the best rifle ever made. If not, a long gun chambered in .223/5.56mm is certainly a good second choice. I would recommend some sort of official training for those who lack experience with assault weapons.

  5. Nice article and good points, I am a Jeff Cooper fan myself. I agree regards the potency of the 7.62×51 MBR’s. Your image of the FAL took me bag back many years and there were pleny of FAL’s, G3’s encountered during my tour.
    Although are batteries include (7.62×54, 7.62×39 and 5.56). While can shoot with either hand, I am a lefty and with the M1A, AK types, FAL’s and MAS-59 I can rack and slap the actuator with out replacing my trigger hand.

  6. heres a twister for you, how about here in New Zealand where we are SEVERELY limited by magazine size.

    .308 can have 3 rounds, .223 can hold 5, plus one in the chamber for both…… then again your shotgun can hold 8 with one in the chamber!

  7. The article made some good poits. However most people have a greatly inflated sense of their marksmanship skills but couldn’t hit a barn past 200 yds. ,7.62 battle rifles won’t do these people much good.

  8. This is a much a response to SOL as to the article.

    You do need to have some kind of rules of engagement. IF you see people down the street pulling your neighbors and / or friends out of their homes and standing them up against a wall or forcing them to kneel to shoot them, I say let the air out of the offenders and anyone with them.

    But, just because someone is walking down the street, that is when I would let them pass. You do have to exercise some judgement.

    A armed group raiding homes is a problem to be dealt with. When push comes to shove and WROL, you still have to answer for your actions.

    Be sure of your motives, be sure of theirs, but be prepared to act, too. Your life and the lives of those you know are at stake.

  9. sol, you show little knowledge of real world events. Check sites on Chechnyea, Bosnia, or Argentina in the 20th century and you’ll see why you need more than 300 yard shots, that will not be murder. Check my own states Katrina and see that law enforcement was the bad guys down here when they were around. For the most part the law came out of the gun barrel. As for pushing a platform, I recommended the major BATTLE rifles that were combat proven. The fn fal has been used by 93 countries and the G3 another thirty countries is self explanatory, the M1a is a fine rifle as well. Unless you get a gas piston .308 , ie an LWRC reaper currently at about $4000.00 , you are getting an unreliable rifle in gas impingement compared to the three I listed. Check the reason the military snipers are now disregarding the sr-25, your recommended rifle type, for the scar heavy due to reliability issues. As to the La swat team, you dont know much about a gun fight. The gunman was barricaded in a section 8 house shooting them successfully and there .223 rounds would not go through the door. the could not get close to breach as he knew how to shoot. I recommend you get training and experience.

  10. Tom I applaud your buy in a 7,.62 x 54 rifle as they are cheap, fairly accurate and hard hitting. It does work well. But, the flaws in your theory are thus. One, You cannot lay out a volume of fire at a distance with the Nagant. As the articles on the on several forums talked about in the area of suppressive fire. Accuracy is one issue volume is another. Sorry Tom, the Nagant is not a volume weapon. Ammo is not used by our military and although it is available now, it is not that common as .308 is in every Walmart if things get tough and in every 240 g’s ammo box if need be. Also the Nagant is a fairly accurate rifle but a good G3 or Fn fal will shoot more accurately and therefore give more accuracy at longer ranges. If all you can afford is the Nagant, very good. And the shooter does make the rifle. But do not assume that a good shooter with a mediocre rifle could not do much better with a better rifle. Also you say the price of the ak or the a5-15 is a selling point. You can get an fn fal for about the price of either gun if you dont set your sights too high. And you are not solving the problem with the ak or the ar as they are assault rifles and not battle rifles. Bracken’s articles showed that the reason to use the .308 was to give yourself reach with power and accuracy over the opposition, who will not doubt have a .223. Never go so cheap on a weapon as to hamstring yourself. After all how much is your butt worth?

  11. My vote is for the G3 clones. Cheap magazines, cheap replacement parts (by cheap I mean inexpensive). Easier to mount stable optics than the FAL. Most don’t care if you shoot cheap steel cased ammo (it’s actually better sometimes as the G3 extraction is so violent and can rip apart case rims). Super easy to take apart and clean. Only downsides are poor ergonomics (especially for lefties), tend to be muzzle heavy, and no last shot bolt hold open (you just can’t with such a big heavy bolt carrier, it would blow the magazine apart!).

  12. I believe Sol pointed out the in “war” incidents. As far as Chechnya, Bosnia, and Argentina are concerned you appear to have no knowledge of the real world. These countries are still dealing with the people involved in the war crimes committed during their internal conflicts. Some were just sentenced to life in prison in Argentina in the last few months for their roles in the “dirty war of 1980s”. So if you are shooting people who are non-combatants at 300 yards you are a murder under U.S. law and a war criminal under international law. The bottom line is you better be justified even in WROL because even after WROL there will be some type of law and order that will hold you accountable, history has proven that time and time again. Now while the .308 has its place it does not need to be on an entry gun. The 5.56 is a proven CQB round in both the LE and military world. As far as my real world experience I have been an LE for going on 25 years now with 15 of that as a SWAT officer, so I can talk from experience. I did notice you failed to mention your experience, but were quick to call someone out on their lack of it. Your article is based on a lot of quotes, but none base on personal real world experience of your own. Now back here in the real world if you were shooting at my team we would put counter fire on you with our 5.56s and or sniper while other team members would flank you and eliminate you as threat. The bottom line is it is about the man behind the gun not the gun. There is no one gun for every situation, but again the .308 has it place just like the 5.56 and the .50 cal for that fact. So I recommend to you Bret to follow some of your own advice “I recommend you get training and experience.”

    Remember: Only rounds on target count, not how big your gun is!!!!

    One more thing Bret please link the department that switched from the AR platform to the FAL. I would like to contact them and talk to them. I am very interest in their reasoning.

  13. Nice… Nothing gets an argument going faster than sharing ones choice in firearms. I ain’t tellin ya what I use. But like good shoes … I have what ‘fits’ me and the Corps taught me to put it to its designed use out to 600 yards with iron sights. I take current training….. not practice… training.. each year. Iron sights are nice but my glass puts 3 rounds under a 50 cent piece at 200 yards and I have some old eyes.

    love and kisses everybody!!!!

  14. Bret, I’m mostly in agreement with you though I think your premise that rate of fire somehow relates to suppressive fire is incorrect. This video demonstrates that “accurate” fire is more effective than volume of fire. A few insurgents with bolt guns vs TWO PLATOONS of Marines…

    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/19/a-firsthand-look-at-firefights-in-marja/

    I would not call what those Marines were facing “accurate” fire. Probably better than what they were used to facing but at the ranges mentioned the worst shot in our club’s Military rifle match (mostly old bolt guns) would have really had those guys head’s down and running for cover.

    My Korean War Vet Father said that after two shots they know where you are and you can expect incoming to arrive shortly there after. Shoot and scoot.

    Also if you read or watch videos of Carlos Hathcock he said that after firing a shot they often looked in the wrong direction for him. He also said that he rarely made more than three shots from any one position if he was in range of the enemies weapons.

  15. I will make the assumption that not everyone knows the reasoning behind the US military selecting the 5.56 to replace the 7.62 NATO. Weight was one factor, but the post WWII mass movement of the population from rural areas where hunting and target shooting were common practice to cities where there was little opportunity for firearm practice was more significant. Farm boys on the average shoot better and are used to the kick of large caliber weapons in comparison to the city boys. It is easier to teach a new soldier who has never held a firearm how to shoot a weapon which doesn’t kick very much. Korea taught the US Army that a 30-06 was not a very good round if the soldier winced in anticipation of the butt slam every time he pulled the trigger. Dumbing the 30-06 down to the 7.62 NATO helped some, but not enough. Hence, the light weight 5.56 became the round of choice. The jungles of SE Asia did not offer many possibilities to use the 800+ yard capabilities of the M14; the 500+/- yard range of the M16 was more than adequate.

    In a military situation, a wounded soldier takes 1 or 2 more out of action – either to tend to him or to carry him to an aid station. This is applicable in almost all armies with the exception of elite units which are specifically trained to ignore their buddies cries for help. So, even injuries from small rounds effectively reduce the opponent’s forces. Even armies with a wide variety of minority representation have a significant amount of unit cohesion. You help the soldier next to you in hopes that he would do the same for you (plus if you’re hauling an injuried guy to the aid station you are not at the tip of the spear where you can get dinged). In a SHTF scenario a hungry horde of looters are less likely to respond in this manner and so each casualty is only important insofar as it takes that individual out of the action.

    As with many of the article posted on Rourke’s site, this one conjectures a situation where law and order are limited or non-existent. Many of the responses fail to recognize that and try to force the author to fit into our current socio-political context. Everyone knows it is a criminal act to engage in a firefight in today’s society. Everyone knows it is bad karma to shoot people who aren’t actively trying to commit a felony on you or your property (at least here in Texas we can still shoot to defend our stuff). Everyone knows SWAT is standing by to rescue the pregnant lady from the deranged pizza delivery guy. That’s today – what about next week or next year?

    Given a situation where my calls to 911 go unanswered and folks (armed or not) are trying to enter my property for whatever purpose and I feel justified in using deadly force to defend my property I would choose either my .338 Lapua or my .308 M1A as my first choice (range and number of targets being a deciding factor). In my homestead I have numerous opportunities for 1,000+ meter shots and I would not choose to give up that amount of seperation simply because I don’t like the kick of a large caliber firearm. Assuming “they” have to cover 500 yards (1,000 where I start shooting to 500 where they have any hope of hitting a target, i.e. me) at a steady jogging speed (5 to 6 MPH), I will have approximately 3 minutes to engage any intruders. Would you want to run 500 yards under fire? A typical hungry horde of lotters is going to turn and run for easier pickings. Even a really well trained team of assailants is going to be discouraged if they suffer 25% or better casualties before they even get into firing range.

    Not everyone has the same level of training or real world experiences. I believe the author is on target for their abilities and suppossed circumstances with sound advice for others with similar conditions.

    Irish-7, good response.

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